Capabilities of 3D Scanning/Printing Technology

      Capabilities of 3D Scanning/Printing Technology

      Hello,

      I would like to pose this question to those who have experience with 3-D scanning and 3-D printing.

      In the context of mask making, I'm sure someone people have tried to scan an object (eg. like a figure) with a 3-D scanner, play with the 3-D model so that it is appropriate for 3-D mask printing, and then print out the 3-D mask in chucks or sections.

      If one were to 3-D scan the head of a mannequin, enlarge the 3-D model of the head by 20% using the 3-D printing software, and print out a hallowed out version of the head to be used as a mask, what are some of the challenges in creating a mask using this technique?

      What are some difficulties in trying to create an accurate recreation?

      Is it better to use this technique to just create the initial ABS mask shell for the purpose of creating a mold, from which to create the actual FRP mask?

      -Kana

      I and the other mask makers who 3D print masks normally model them digitally rather than making them from 3D scans (I know Cici did experiment with 3D scanning a while back but AFAIK she normally just designs masks digitally). Figures usually have somewhat less defined features than kigs do, so a 3D scan of a figure will need quite a bit of adjustment to get a decent mask out of it. Also, a 3D scan of a figure will have just an outside surface, and a printed mask will need an inside surface to be added.

      Also, there's another option for print-based masks: resin printing. Resin printers are better at thin walls and have a higher resolution than extrusion printers (they are usually faster as well). With a resin printer it should be possible to make the printed part of the mask quite thin (without the infill voids of extrusion-printed masks) and add multiple FRP layers to the inside, resulting in a print-based mask that's mostly FRP and is very similar to a cast mask. I'm planning to try building a resin printer eventually.
      I am open for mask/prop commissions. Send me a PM or check my profile for more information

      Resin printers use really expensive consumables and the resins have shelf life of about 6 minths. The plastics are also not really as durable as the cured resins are really quite brittle especially thin parts - not really something you want with a kig mask that might get bumped at a crowded con.

      Although SLA printers are really good for small finer detail work using a resin printer for a kig mask prob is going to cost more than it is worth. You need to look at their laws of dimishing returns here.

      Not all SLA resins are the same. I know there are a few that are ABS-like (the one I was thinking of using is said to be somewhat flexible although they don't specifically say it's ABS-like). While the resins are somewhat more expensive than filament, there are some that are reasonably inexpensive (and since I was planning to make the printed part of the shell as thin as possible and reinforce it with conventional epoxy resin and fiberglass, it probably wouldn't be all that much more expensive than extrusion printing). I there were going to be major problems I would think they'd be with delamination of the epoxy from the printed resin (I would make sure to sand the inside before fiberglassing just like I do with my ABS masks so hopefully that wouldn't happen; I plan to print, join, and fiberglass some test segments and test them destructively to see if there are any such issues) .
      I am open for mask/prop commissions. Send me a PM or check my profile for more information

      Hello Justin,

      Thank you for your reply and feedback.

      Naturally, due to the small size of typical model figures, a 3D scan would not produce a very detailed 3D asset. Or you'd have to do a lot of extra post-scan 3D modeling work, which could be time-consuming and for the reasons you mentioned earlier.

      However, what if the object was a life-size or somehow exaggerated (in size) mannequin head? For example, I know some producers who make life-size FRP anime statues. If I detached the head from such an anime statue and use it on a 3D scanner, do you thin we can create a much higher resolution object that's detailed enough for a 3D printer to make a passable mask? (There's still the task of hollowing out the 3D model) The reason I ask is to see if we can shortcut the need to create the original clay sculpture. I'm aware that this takes out the creative part of the design process, but that isn't the point of this thread.

      The many mask producers I associate with haven't dabbled in 3D scanning/printing technology. Hence, they are unfamiliar with it and naturally don't have faith in the technology yet, but are aware that it has potential. For now, it's still clay sculpting or modifying base shells.

      On a side note, the "artists" are working on a experimental base head with a realistic appearance (at my request) and we're going to play around with silicone, soft rubber, and traditional FRP to see what kind of results we get.

      Post was edited 1 time, last by “Kana Otonashi” ().

      Granted, I have no background in 3D printing or 3D graphics, but I wonder if you would be willing to look at the situation from another perspective.

      I gather that you wish to use both processes, to generate a plastic sculpture, which could be used to make the mask molds, rather than the actual mask itself? Thereby bypassing the tedious stage of sculpting the clay as we normally do?

      Has anyone thought of using the 3D printing process to make the actual mask mold itself?

      If you are going to use silicone or rubber to create the outer skin of a mask, it would need to be brushed or sloshed into a negative mold anyways.

      Kana Otonashi wrote:

      However, what if the object was a life-size or somehow exaggerated (in size) mannequin head? For example, I know some producers who make life-size FRP anime statues. If I detached the head from such an anime statue and use it on a 3D scanner, do you thin we can create a much higher resolution object that's detailed enough for a 3D printer to make a passable mask? (There's still the task of hollowing out the 3D model) The reason I ask is to see if we can shortcut the need to create the original clay sculpture. I'm aware that this takes out the creative part of the design process, but that isn't the point of this thread.
      That might work better although there would still be some work required like you said.

      And generally the point of going digital isn't to cut out the creative part of the design process, but more to streamline the process and make it more flexible (at least that's how I see it; I wouldn't use a 3D scan of someone else's design unless they specifically wanted me to).

      Miss Kiki wrote:


      Has anyone thought of using the 3D printing process to make the actual mask mold itself?

      If you are going to use silicone or rubber to create the outer skin of a mask, it would need to be brushed or sloshed into a negative mold anyways.


      I would think sanding the inside of a negative mold would be a fair bit harder than sanding a normal printed shell. Printing molds directly would probably work OK, but the cast masks would take a lot more sanding than ones made from a conventional mold based on either a printed pattern or a clay/foam/pepakura one (at least with an extrusion printer; with a resin printer there would be less sanding required because of the higher resolution).
      I am open for mask/prop commissions. Send me a PM or check my profile for more information

      In theory you could scan and print a mannequen head. It would take a decent amount of finishing after. But I think the bigger issues is that would be the blatent and direct theft of somebody else's sculpt. Just as if someone were to scan a nuko mask and directly reproduce that.

      Cici did do some scanning experiments. But the scans were taken from the original Yu mask which she had a licence to use for that purpose. My understanding is the mask created from that scan never made it beyond the prototype stage.

      Miss Kiki wrote:


      Has anyone thought of using the 3D printing process to make the actual mask mold itself?

      If you are going to use silicone or rubber to create the outer skin of a mask, it would need to be brushed or sloshed into a negative mold anyways.


      I would think sanding the inside of a negative mold would be a fair bit harder than sanding a normal printed shell. Printing molds directly would probably work OK, but the cast masks would take a lot more sanding than ones made from a conventional mold based on either a printed pattern or a clay/foam/pepakura one (at least with an extrusion printer; with a resin printer there would be less sanding required because of the higher resolution).[/quote]

      I made some experiments... you don't need to sand inside mold. You can sand a cast, it's effectieve then sandind a mold inside. Also you won't need to do it for mass-production ABS mask shells.
      All my costumes, armor, masks and staff are made by myself. I'm also taking commissions. Worldwide.
      My site: dkag.net
      My Facebook: hikarinaka.DK

      Hello again,
      I have some more questions for those who have experience with 3D printing.
      I appreciate your feedback (^_^)

      1) At what 3D printing resolution do you think is ideal for masks? (Eg. O.1mm)

      2) What do you think is the ideal way to smooth out layer lines?
      Eg. Hot or cold acetone vapor bath, traditional sanding, bead spray, etc.

      3) What material is ideal for 3D printing?
      eg. ABS, resin, etc.

      Earlier in this thread I said that I wasn't sure how well printing negative molds would work. I've tried it and found that it works well (I am switching away from direct printing of shells). Here is the thread showing the process I used.

      Kana Otonashi wrote:


      1) At what 3D printing resolution do you think is ideal for masks? (Eg. O.1mm)

      I use 0.1mm layers for printing molds with my resin printer. On my extrusion printers I have used layer heights between 0.23mm and 0.32mm, although I will probably use lower heights in the future because I am going to mostly use extrusion printing for props, which are quite often smaller than kig masks.

      Kana Otonashi wrote:


      2) What do you think is the ideal way to smooth out layer lines?
      Eg. Hot or cold acetone vapor bath, traditional sanding, bead spray, etc.


      Relatively light sanding is all that is required to smooth the inside of the mold segments I print on my resin printer. For smoothing stuff printed on an extrusion printer, I use both acetone slurry and sanding.

      Kana Otonashi wrote:


      3) What material is ideal for 3D printing?
      eg. ABS, resin, etc.


      For direct extrusion printing of shells, ABS is ideal because it can be easily solvent smoothed and solvent welded. For printing of negative molds, it is ideal to use a resin printer, since you want as little sanding as possible (you might be able to get away with using an extrusion printer if you use a really low layer height, which will make the prints take a lot longer).
      I am open for mask/prop commissions. Send me a PM or check my profile for more information

      Post was edited 1 time, last by “JustinBailey” ().

      JustinBailey wrote:


      For direct extrusion printing of shells, ABS is ideal because it can be easily solvent smoothed and solvent welded. For printing of negative molds, it is ideal to use a resin printer, since you want as little sanding as possible (you might be able to get away with using an extrusion printer if you use a really low layer height, which will make the prints take a lot longer).


      The 3D Printing service I employed suggested using PLA, so I went with that and ended up with a really good shell. PLA, a form of thermoplastic, is quite tough. Although not easily noticeable on first inspection, I can feel the layer lines as I touch the surface of the printed mask. Putty does not stick very well to PLA, so I just had the 3D printed mask molded and re-casted with FRP. The layer lines are obviously still there, but FRP is easier to work with, so now I'm at the phase where the surface of the FRP mask needs to be smoothed out. This will take a bit of time...

      Next time, I will try printing in ABS, then perhaps I can save myself a step or two, since ABS should be more putty-friendly and can be easily smoothed down as you mentioned.

      Kana Otonashi wrote:

      JustinBailey wrote:


      For direct extrusion printing of shells, ABS is ideal because it can be easily solvent smoothed and solvent welded. For printing of negative molds, it is ideal to use a resin printer, since you want as little sanding as possible (you might be able to get away with using an extrusion printer if you use a really low layer height, which will make the prints take a lot longer).


      The 3D Printing service I employed suggested using PLA, so I went with that and ended up with a really good shell. PLA, a form of thermoplastic, is quite tough. Although not easily noticeable on first inspection, I can feel the layer lines as I touch the surface of the printed mask. Putty does not stick very well to PLA, so I just had the 3D printed mask molded and re-casted with FRP. The layer lines are obviously still there, but FRP is easier to work with, so now I'm at the phase where the surface of the FRP mask needs to be smoothed out. This will take a bit of time...

      Next time, I will try printing in ABS, then perhaps I can save myself a step or two, since ABS should be more putty-friendly and can be easily smoothed down as you mentioned.


      PLA is great for patterns, your problem may be the type of filler you're attempting to use~

      140725 ears ll'.jpg Typical pattern

      140730 2nd coat l.jpg Post printing processing

      140804 fuyu 1st graphics l.jpg Processed shell~

      One of the things we've found is not to use domestic or consumer products. Commercial grade products though more toxic and harder to obtain yield better results.

      cici wrote:


      PLA is great for patterns, your problem may be the type of filler you're attempting to use~
      One of the things we've found is not to use domestic or consumer products. Commercial grade products though more toxic and harder to obtain yield better results.


      Thank you for sharing some of your insight and experience.

      From your images, the filler you are using appears to work quite well.
      Masks with large surface area and perhaps with less extreme contours seems to work just fine with the appropriate putty compound.

      flickr.com/photos/106009142@N02/30235739014/

      The current prototype I am working on is smaller with more human-like contours, so I was afraid of losing some of those details when using a significant amount of filler and sanding. It's already been re-casted to FRP, so the team here will work with that for now.

      After this prototype is done, I will try putting together a PLA anime character mask next time and see how it works out using your suggestion.

      Thanks again.

      Post was edited 4 times, last by “Kana Otonashi” ().